Plato’s “Meno” Name that clip?

Socrates (470-399 B.C.) Devoted life to conversation/examination of ideas. Left no writings.

The “Agora” in Athens Hung out in the marketplace and the gymnasium/athletic club in Athens.

Plato (427-347 B.C.) Plato was one of the young men who was attracted by Socrates’ conversations. Did want his ideas to die with him—wrote dialogues. Fictionalized recreations of the kinds of conversations Socrates had with people.

But, what is “virtue”? Can virtue be taught? “Nature vs. Nurture” What did you think of Socrates? Meno written about 10 years after Socrates died. What was the opening question that Meno asked Socrates? Why was this an important question? Raising children. Can people learn to be successful? Or is it just a matter of luck, or genes? How does Socrates respond? But, what is “virtue”?

What is “virtue”? Sophists 71a: Socrates doesn’t know 71c: Gorgias knows Sophists Rejects the question. If you don’t understand key term in a question, how can you answer it? Focus on Concepts. Can we KNOW that the world existed long before we were born? Etc. We think we know what we are talking about, but do we really? What is “knowledge”? Can’t answer the question until we understand the words in it. What is the definition of “virtue”? Who knows? Socrates doesn’t. (Marginal numbers.) Gorgias does. Does Meno know? “sophistical” Gorgias Protagoras Prodicus

Modern Sophists 1936 Sophists: Get people to do what you want them to. Not worry about whether your purposes are good, worthwhile. How to get your way. 1936

Modern Sophists Political Consultants? Karl Rove Bush’s chief political advisor. Engineered Republican victories in November. Time: “the President's most trusted political strategist and arguably one of the shrewdest man in Washington.” Others say he'll do just about anything to win. “He's America's Joseph Goebbels.” Nazi propaganda minister.

Modern Sophists Political Consultants? James Carville “America’s best-known political consultant. Engineered Clinton’s presidential victory in 1992.

Advertising & Marketing Specialists? Modern Sophists Are they selling trucks?

Advertising & Marketing Specialists? Modern Sophists Or consider Clairol Herbal Essence Shampoo: “Totally organic experience.”

What is “virtue”? 71a: Socrates doesn’t know 71c: Gorgias knows 71d: Meno must say for himself Socrates personalizes the discussion: Can Meno say…?

Meno’s answer (71e) Man’s virtue: successfully manage public affairs Woman’s virtue: successfully manage household Child’s virtue… Old man’s virtue… Slave’s virtue… And so on... How does Meno try to answer? Gives examples. (Cf. examples of Phjlosophy.) What’s wrong with that? (72a) Soc: “I am looking for one virtue, I have found you to have a whole swarm of them.” Meno doesn’t really understand the problem (72d). Consider the question: What is an ellipse?

Ellipses: How far do examples get us? What’s the problem?

Requirements of a good definition: 1) Not just a bunch of examples. Examples are OK as a start, but there’s more to it.

Socrates’ response (72c): “Tell me, what is this very thing…in which they are all the same and do not differ from one another?” “Even if they are many and various, all of them have one and the same form which makes them virtues.” What’s common to all the examples? What distinguishes them from things that are not examples?

A (F1^A) + (A^F2) = (F1^B) + (B^F2) Focus 2 Focus 1 B Ellipse: a closed plane figure all of whose points are such that the sum of the distances from that point to each focus is equal. How would you define “ellipse”?

Requirements of a good definition: 1) Not just a bunch of examples. 2) Essence: What it is about the examples in virtue of which they are examples of the concept being defined. Socrates calls it a “form”, but he just means essence. Finally by 77b Meno sees what Socrates is looking for!

Meno’s attempts (78b-79e): Virtue is the power to acquire good things. What is Meno’s first attempt at a real definition? What problem does Socrates see with it?

Counter-examples Fish: An animal that lives in the ocean. Something included in the definition but which is not an example of the concept. (The definition is too broad.) How do you evaluate a definition?

Requirements of a good definition: 1) Not just a bunch of examples. 2) Essence: What it is about the examples in virtue of which they are examples of the concept being defined. A) Neither too broad Meno’s attempt was too broad: It included things we wouldn’t consider virtuous— acquisition by force!

Counter-examples Mammal: An animal that has hair and gives live birth to its young. Counter-example? An example of the concept which is not included in the definition. (The definition is too narrow.)

Requirements of a good definition: 1) Not just a bunch of examples. 2) Essence: What it is about the examples in virtue of which they are examples of the concept being defined. A) Neither too broad B) Nor too narrow. Meno doesn’t happen to make this mistake. But suppose he defined “virtue” as “helping children in need”?

created by the intersection of a plane and a conic section. Ellipse: a closed plane figure created by the intersection of a plane and a conic section. How does that work? Does it help? Why not?

Requirements of a good definition: 1) Not just a bunch of examples. 2) Essence: What it is about the examples in virtue of which they are examples of the concept being defined. A) Neither too broad B) Nor too narrow. 3) The definition should contain concepts that are clearer than the concept being defined. Definitions should help us understand BETTER.

Guileless? “Guileless” means having no guile.

Circular Definition? IRS definition of “a child living at home”: A child who lives at home. Real example.

Meno’s attempts (78b-79e): Virtue is the power to acquire good things. Virtue is the power to acquire good things justly or virtuously. This is the problem Meno runs into in his next attempt at a definition. He narrows down his overly broad definition by using the very term he is trying to define. What’s the problem? It is no clearer.

Requirements of a good definition: 1) Not just a bunch of examples. 2) Essence: What it is about the examples in virtue of which they are examples of the concept being defined. A) Neither too broad B) Nor too narrow. 3) The definition should contain concepts that are clearer than the concept being defined. Circular definitions are only one EXAMPLE of what is ruled out here. So here we have a DEFINITION of “definition” Why are definitions important? In philosophy. But also in real life. E.g., no circular definitions.

Meno’s attempts (78b-79e): Virtue is the power to acquire good things. Virtue is the power to acquire good things justly or virtuously. When Meno’s second try doesn’t work out, how does he react?

Meno’s Ready to Give Up (80 a-c) Meno compares Socrates to a broad torpedo fish—numbs its victim. Meno: “I have made many speeches about virtue before large audiences on thousands of occasions, very good speeches as I thought, but now I cannot even say what it is.” Does Socrates have him where he wants him? Not really. Doesn’t admit ignorance. Rather, blames Socrates for confusion. “I know it—you just keep me from saying it.” Dogmatism: Unwillingness to examine one’s own views carefully.

Story of the enthused pupil who seeks out a Zen Master for wisdom/meaning of life.

Psychological studies on (in)competence David Dunning--Journal of Personality & Social Psychology, Dec. 2000. Most incompetent people don’t know that they are incompetent. People who do things badly are usually quite confident--more confident than people who do things well. Some college students who do badly on a test will spend hours in the professor’s office explaining why the professor’s answers are wrong. Problems of not acknowledging ignorance—stop seeking.

Thomas Jefferson: “He who knows best knows how little he knows.”

Remaining questions: Will Meno admit his ignorance? Does Socrates know what virtue is, and whether it can be taught? What do you think?

Assignment for next class: Read the rest of the Meno: pp. 70-92 in Plato’s Five Dialogues.