Day 1, Session 2 An introduction to fish population dynamics

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Day 1, Session 2 An introduction to fish population dynamics 11/9/2018 Day 1, Session 2 An introduction to fish population dynamics

Overview (i) Fish populations generally 11/9/2018 Overview (i) Fish populations generally What is a “population”? What is a “stock”? Life cycles and life history strategies Basic population dynamic processes Movement (ii) Fished populations in particular What is “fishing mortality”? Natural variability in populations versus fishing-based impacts Some characteristics of the behaviour of exploited populations What is “overfishing”?

11/9/2018 Fish populations

Two important definitions 11/9/2018 Two important definitions What is a “population”? Does it differ from a “stock”? The definition and use of the terms “population” and “stock” tends to be a bit rubbery. They are often taken to mean the same thing, but are not necessarily the same. A population is: “A group of individuals of the same species living in the same area at the same time and sharing a common gene pool, with little or no immigration or emigration.” A stock is: “The part of a fish population which is under consideration from the point of view of actual or potential utilization.” (Ricker 1975) “A group of fish of one species which shares common ecological and genetic features. The stocks defined for the purposes of stock assessment and management do not necessarily coincide with self-contained population units.” (Restrepo 1999)

Industrialised fishing 11/9/2018 Why do we need to understand how unexploited populations behave? Industrialised fishing “To understand how populations will respond to exploitation, we need to appreciate how they will behave when unexploited” Hilborn and Walters, 1992 We know from fossil records that animal populations change size over time. For fish, we use the example of scales preserved in the seafloor sediments in the Eastern Pacific. The density of scales is an indicator of the abundance of the fish over 2000 years, and indicates that both anchovy and sardine populations varied dramatically in size over time, and these changes in population size occurred 100s of years before these stocks were being fished to any significant level. What does this tell us? Fishing is not the only process that can result in changes in the size/abundance of a fish population. If we wish to understand the impact of fishing on a population, we need to also understand what other factors are driving population change? Why? So we don’t accidently ascribe, for example, a reduction in stock size to fishing, when in fact it was some other factor (e.g. poor environmental conditions leading to poor recruitment) So what factors other than fishing might cause fish populations sizes to change (go up or go down) over time….we are going to spend some time trying to understand this today and tommorow.

A generalised tuna life cycle 11/9/2018 A generalised tuna life cycle Adults Spawning and fertilisation Reproductive maturation Eggs Hatching First of all lets look at a generalised tuna life cycle. This is the first key step to understanding fish population dynamics and why fish populations change size over time. [Explain life cycle] All of the individuals alive at any one time regardless of whether they are larvae, juveniles or adults, effectively make up the “population” Juvenile stages Larvae

Variations in fish life cycles 11/9/2018 Variations in fish life cycles Within this basic strategy there is some variation, even across large pelagic species taken by tuna fisheries. Two well known species groups with very contrasting life histories are the tunas and sharks. Big implications for population dynamics and for resilience to fishing. 107 Sharks (generalised) Tuna (generalised) 106 Eggs/Larvae 105 Juveniles Adults Numbers 104 103 If we consider the offspring of a single female of each species, the survival pattern as each group of offspring grow older is quite different – this has significant implications for population dynamics and resilience to fishing, as we will see over the next couple of days. 102 101 Days Months Years

Basic population dynamics 11/9/2018 Basic population dynamics What are the processes that drive unexploited population fluctuations? In a closed animal population, that is, one with no immigration or emmigration: Population size (numbers) Births Deaths But regardless of which type of life cycle the fish employ, the population processes that determine how a population changes in size over time are the same. What are the two key population processes that will determine how many individuals there are in a population over time? [Explain slide] Nt+1= Nt + Bth - M Nt+1 = Number of animals in the next year Nt = Number of animals in the current year Bth = “Births” after one year M = Natural deaths after one year.

Basic population dynamics 11/9/2018 Basic population dynamics A biomass version of the previous model: conceptual Biomass: “The mass or weight of [a specified group of] living biological organisms in a given area or ecosystem at a given time.’” Births Deaths Population Biomass Growth If we think of population size interms of its mass, or its “biomass”, what is the third key process we have to consider. What third process effects populaton size in mass? Growth does! Bt+1 = Biomass of animals in the next year Bt = Biomass of animals in the current year Bth = Biomass of newborns after one year G = Growth (in mass) of age 2+ animals M = Natural deaths after one year. Bt+1= Bt + Bth + G - M

Basic population dynamics 11/9/2018 Basic population dynamics If we think of the biomass model for a fish population it can be represented like this: Growth (G) Recruitment (R) Deaths = Natural mortality (M ) Biomass Biomass added Biomass removed This is the same model but representing it more explicitly as a tuna population. In population models for fish like tuna, we tend to talk about recruitment rather than births, and natural mortality rather than just mortality (or deaths). We will talk about why this is later this week in our sessions on recruitment and mortality, but in short, recruits defines the biomass of new individuals in the population at the point at which we can detect (and measure) them. Theres no point is estimating the biomass of larvae because we have no means to determine with any accuracy how many of them there are. Bt+1 = Biomass of fish in the next year Bt = Biomass of fish in the current year R = Biomass of new recruits (e.g. in one years time) G = Additonal biomass due to growth of current fish M = Biomass of fish from current population that died. Bt+1= Bt + R + G - M

Basic population dynamics 11/9/2018 Basic population dynamics A biomass version of the previous model: mathematical Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M Bt+1 = Biomass of fish in one year, Bt = Current biomass; R = Biomass of new recruits in one years time, G = Additional biomass due to growth of current fish M = Biomass of fish from current population that died. NB: each of the processes of recruitment, growth and mortality, are affected by numerous other factors, both endogenous (relating to the fish’s genetics, physiology and behaviour) and exogenous (determined by the fish’s environment and external influencing factors).

Recruitment (R) What is recruitment? 11/9/2018 Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M Recruitment (R) What is recruitment? Recruitment is another rubbery concept. Recruitment simply refers to the appearance of new, young organisms in a population following a previous reproductive event. However, when fish are considered to be recruited is often defined to be when new individuals can be detected (i.e., counted or estimated). Four alternative recruitment definitions: In demography, recruitment usually refers to the maturing of individuals into the adult age classes. In fisheries science, recruitment is usually defined as the appearance of a new cohort in the catch due to it becoming big or old enough to be vulnerable to the fishery. Particular fisheries definition 1: “The population still alive at any specified time after the egg stage.” (Haddon, 1997) Particular fisheries definition 2: “The number of fish [of a cohort] alive in a population at any arbitrarily defined point in time after the subsidence of initial high mortality.” (Rothschild, 1987) The key point is that when you read an assessment paper, make sure you determine what the particular authors mean by this term, because it can differ between authors sometimes.

What are the processes that affect recruitment in the sea? 11/9/2018 Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M Recruitment (R) What are the processes that affect recruitment in the sea? Firstly, we need to remind ourselves of the life-history stages from when an adult population spawns to when individuals produced by that spawning event enter (recruit to) the adult population. Having sorted that out, we may ask what factors influence the production of eggs and the probability a given egg and resultant larvae growing and surviving through each of the subsequent stages? Adult production of gametes Spawning and fertilisation Larval development within eggs Hatching Larval stage Metamorphosis Juvenile stage Maturation Adult phase

Spawning and fertilisation 11/9/2018 Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M Recruitment (R) Some processes that may affect egg production, egg condition, and larval survival Fecundity (“quantity”) Adult condition (“quality”) Environment (“good fortune”) Adult production of gametes Spawning and fertilisation Larval development within eggs Hatching Larval stage Metamorphosis Juvenile stage Maturation Adult phase

Some processes that affect larval and juvenile survival 11/9/2018 Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M Recruitment (R) Some processes that affect larval and juvenile survival Biotic factors: Starvation/Competition Predation/Cannabalism Disease Abiotic factors: Temperature Salinity Oxygen Apparently small variations in relative or proportional survival at these stages can lead to big variations in subsequent recruitment Adult production of gametes Spawning and fertilisation Larval development within eggs Hatching Larval stage Metamorphosis Juvenile stage Maturation Adult phase

Recruitment (R) In summary 11/9/2018 Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M Recruitment (R) In summary Many different factors can impact the survival of marine fish at any of the different stages in the recruitment process So, how do we measure recruitment? Three possible strategies include: Sampling regimes targeted at juveniles Size specific indices of abundance from catch-effort data Assume a relationship with adult stock size Where information on (a) and (b) above are not available, scientists require a predictive relationship that is based on other available data. The most commonly used, and debated, of these in fisheries science is the stock-recruitment relationship.

Recruitment (R) Albacore tuna Yellowfin tuna 11/9/2018 Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M Recruitment (R) The stock-recruitment relationship Two general theories: Recruitment is density-dependant Recruitment is density-independent The latter theory was once very popular due to a lack of obvious correlations in many plotted spawner-recruit datasets (i.e., recruitment plotted as a function of spawning biomass) The yft and bet plots shown here suggest that over most of the range of adult stock size, there is high variability in recruitment, and that variability is not due to increasing or decreasing stock size, but rather other factors, most likely environmental. The flat line suggests a density dependant relationship but in reality, if there is a density dependant relationship, it is of fairly minor significance relative to the impact of environment and other factors. Albacore tuna Yellowfin tuna

Recruitment (R) The stock-recruitment relationship Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M 11/9/2018 Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M Recruitment (R) The stock-recruitment relationship

Recruitment (R) The stock-recruitment relationship Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M 11/9/2018 Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M Recruitment (R) The stock-recruitment relationship NB: density-dependent recruitment (“DD”) provides a mechanism for natural regulation of population numbers around a natural maximum population size. However, we now think that populations, especially populations in the sea, are not thought to be in a natural equilibrium. More on this later.

Natural mortality (M) What is natural mortality? 11/9/2018 Natural mortality (M) What is natural mortality? It is the process of mortality or death of fish in a population due to natural causes such as predation and disease. Think of it as the removal of fish from the population. Note also that by “natural mortality” we typically refer to mortality post-recruitment as mortality during pre-recruitment life-history stages is usually dealt with during consideration of the recruitment relationship. How do we express natural mortality? Natural mortality is usually expressed as an instantaneous rate. This is a relative change in the proportions of the size or age classes that suffer natural mortality during each time period. Natural mortality rates are critical in understanding of the relative impacts of fishing. In a stock assessment, we often compare natural and fishing mortality rates. Natural mortality also permits some understanding of the “resilience” of a stock to fishing.

Natural mortality (M) BET Fluctuations in M with age 11/9/2018 Natural mortality (M) BET Fluctuations in M with age M tends to decrease with age as fish “out-grow” predators, but it may increase again in older fish due to the stress associated with reproduction SKJ YFT

11/9/2018 Natural mortality (M) Why does natural mortality fluctuate over a fish’s life? Some reasons include: Reduced vulnerability to predation with increased age or size Fish may “out-grow” predators as they age and increase in size Senescence Fish may “wear out” as they age and approach the end of their life cycle; their fitness may decline with age and accumulated reproductive and other stresses Movement Fish may move away from areas of high mortality as they grow Behavioural changes Formation of schools or other social structures Changes in ecosystem status Changes in prey or habitat availability due to other factors may trigger a change in natural mortality Changes in population abundance Density-dependant effects such as intra-specific competition or cannibalism

Growth (G) What is growth? 11/9/2018 Growth (G) What is growth? All fish “grow”. Growth is usually considered to mean a change in fish size (usually some form of length) or weight with age. Growth is an important process to understand as among other things it: Influences a range of related population processes E.g., natural mortality and reproductive maturity rates. Influences the rate at which a cohort gains biomass Growth is the process by which a size or age group moving through the population (a “cohort”) increases in size and thus in weight and hence in “biomass”. Influences fish vulnerability to the fishing gear The vulnerability of individual fish to fishing gear often changes as fish change in size or age. Note that we refer to the different vulnerability of fish of different size or age classes in the population to the fishing gear as “selectivity”.

Growth (G) Describing growth 11/9/2018 Growth (G) Describing growth Typically, fish grow asymptotically, where the rate at which fish size or weight increases with age slows down as the fish ages, approaching a species-specific maximum size or weight. Note that there is no guarantee that an individual fish from a particular species or stock will follow the average growth trend for that species or stock. There are three main factors to consider when thinking about growth: (i) the maximum average size or weight that a species can obtain; (ii) the average rate at which fish size or weight changes with age; and (iii) how big or heavy it is when it begins to grow.

Growth (G) Describing growth 11/9/2018 Growth (G) Describing growth In the tropical tunas (albacore, bigeye, skipjack, and yellowfin) several distinct growth phases can often be recognised. This is often not the case with less mobile, demersal and benthic temperate water fishes. Onset of reproductive maturity

Other factors to consider in fish population dynamics 11/9/2018 Other factors to consider in fish population dynamics Movement—why might we bother? Considering movement in fish population dynamics usually involves simply estimating the balance between immigration and emigration between stock areas or subareas in order to estimate biomass within a particular area or subarea. We often assume that their is no net movement into or out of our stocks. However, a population model developed for a particular stock assessment may need to consider movement within the stock area. It may be necessary to look at the population by subareas and considering fish movement may be important to understand exchange between those parts. (Why?) In short, fish movement can affect the spatial distribution of fish biomass on a variety of spatial and temporal scales

Other factors to consider in fish population dynamics 11/9/2018 Other factors to consider in fish population dynamics Why do fish move? Fish move for reasons that make sense to them! Their movements are usually determined by their physiology and their interactions with their environment. Some possible reasons include: Biology Maintain their preferred habitat, oxygen flow, to follow prey, to counter negative buoyancy, etc. Ecology Migrate to spawning areas (e.g. SBT), an apparent ontogenetic change in preferred habitat (e.g. albacore), a response to seasonal (e.g. albacore) or long term changes (e.g. skipjack) in prevailing environmental or oceanographic conditions, etc.

How is movement monitored? 11/9/2018 Size –frequency analyses CPUE analyses Tagging analyses

11/9/2018 Fished Populations

Our conceptual model of a fish population 11/9/2018 Our conceptual model of a fish population Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M-C Growth (G) Recruitment (R) Natural mortality (M ) Fishing mortality (F ) Biomass Biomass added Biomass removed Ok, so we have established the fact that unfished populations will vary in size over time due to the influence of the environment upon their recruitment (number of young produced), their growth, and their natural mortality rate. However in fished populations there is a fourth process which effects the size of the population, that process of course being…..fishing

Fishing and the “balance of nature” The balance of nature 11/9/2018 Fishing and the “balance of nature” The balance of nature The idea that nature, that ecosystems and their living populations, are in balance, is a myth. Nature is stochastic Ecosystems and the interactions between their components are variable (“stochastic”), and the range of variability itself varies depending on the system and the component. The degree of variability very much depends on the time scale we are considering a population over. Before we move on to consider the effects of fishing on fish populations I just want to make one point, that being that you might sometime hear in the literature or the media the idea being promoted that in the absence of humans, nature exists in some kind of harmonious balance, and that it is solely mans interference that interupts this balance. Most scientists will tell you that the idea that nature, its ecosystems and their living populations are in balance, is a complete myth… Read from slide….

Fishing and the “balance of nature” myth 11/9/2018 Fishing and the “balance of nature” myth Sardine and anchovy population natural fluctuations from the study of scale deposition in marine sediments Bigeye tuna – fishery impacts analyses of estimated biomass with and without the impacts of fishing (SC6 – SA WP-4, 2010) Could squeeze in a graph of recruitment time series from stock assessments here to emphasis the point. NB: environmental impacts on recruitment tend to be significant drivers of population variability for pelagic species such as tunas

Fishing impacts: nature vrs man 11/9/2018 Fishing impacts: nature vrs man So, which is more important, natural factors or fishing? The relative impacts of natural factors versus fishing on fish stocks has been debated for many decades. However, there are four key points we would like you to consider. Four key points Observed change may not be due to fishing It is dangerous to automatically ascribe changes in the size of a fished stock to fishing itself. There are many factors that can influence either stock size, or the indicators used to track stock size, that are not directly related to fishing. Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M-C

Fishing impacts: nature vrs man 11/9/2018 Fishing impacts: nature vrs man Observed change may not be due to natural causes It is equally dangerous to assume that natural variability is the key factor. One might then miss an opportunity to implement changes to the fishery that might ensure sustainability of catches and stock recovery Observed change is more than likely to be due to some combination of natural and fishing effects Changes in fished populations over time are likely to be influenced by both fishing and by environmental or other factors (e.g., eastern pacific sardine and anchovy) Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M-C

Fishing impacts: nature vrs man 11/9/2018 Fishing impacts: nature vrs man However, fishing can affect natural dynamics A population’s response to its environment may in fact be changed by the impacts of fishing so the two processes are interrelated (e.g., increased growth and reproduction from reduced competition for resources) It’s complicated! And here is I guess the twist in the tale….fishing itself can impact on how a population responds to changes in its environment

Stability versus instability of fished populations 11/9/2018 Population states Stability versus instability of fished populations Stability Instability Time Time So what are the types of response that we see from populations when they are fished. There are a whole range of responses and the response depends on the stability and resilience of the population, which will result from the biological characteristics of the population. What do we mean by these terms. Let look at the concept of stablility….here we have two populations. Both show some natural variation in size over time but they differ very much in how the population responds to fishing pressure. The first population can be considered to be fairly stable because after and initial decline due to fishing it recovers somewhat and is able to continue at a lower but in the long term fairly consistant level. Some might consider WCPO skipjack tuna to represent a fairly stable stock or population. Such stable populations are referred to as resilient. The second population does not show stability and “crashes” under the influence of the same amount of fishing catch and effort. Why is it that the two populations might differ in their response to the same level of fishing effort and catch? Population size Fishing catch Skipjack

Population states Resilience 11/9/2018 Population states Resilience “Natural systems are not stable but do exhibit changes within certain bounds or regions of stability. A system with a large region of desirable behaviour is called resilient” (Hilborn and Walters 1992) If a population has shown a capacity to regularly recover from low population levels then it can be thought of as resilient. If a population naturally varies within a fairly narrow population range then reducing the population below its lower “boundary” (e.g. by introducing fishing) carries high risk. Introducing fishing may take the population into a state where we have no idea how it might react or whether it can recover. Resilience in a fishing context is thus the capacity of a population to sustain itself in the long term despite the added impact of fishing at some given level. The first population we looked at we described as “resilient”. What do we mean by this….?

Population states How can we work out how resilient a population is 11/9/2018 Population states How can we work out how resilient a population is How do we know how stable or resilient a population might be without fishing it? Unfortunately, we don’t. We cannot determine where or if a boundary state exists until we have pushed past it. However, we can, if we’re clever, learn from history! We can also learn from our understanding of species biology…. ….How do we do this?.... Lets compare and contrast the tropical tunas and sharks as an example

Stability and Resilience 11/9/2018 Stability and Resilience Examples: Tropical Tunas Sharks Reproductive mode Broadcast spawning Internal fertilisation Fecundity Millions of eggs 2-40+ eggs or young Growth rate Fast Varies, typically slower Age to maturity 1-5 years (most spp) 6-7 years, up to 20 for some species Life span 4-12 years 20-30 years What can we imply or predict from these parameters regarding the relative resilience of these species to fishing pressure? Ref: Last and Stevens (1994)

Resilience: the importance of biology Fish A Fish B 11/9/2018 Age to maturity: 1 year (Fish A), 2 years (Fish B) Fishing Mortality: 2 per year (both) Natural Mortality: 0 per year (both) Recruitment: half spawners per year (both) Growth: 0 per year (both) Fish A 1 years 2 years 3 years 4 years 5 years Fish B

Variations among WCPO tuna 11/9/2018 Variations among WCPO tuna Yellowfin Bigeye Spawning mode Multiple (year round) Multiple (year round) Fercundity 2 million+ 2 million+ Growth rate 45-50cm (1yr) 40cm (1yr), 80cm (2yr) Age to maturity 2-3yr (100-110cm) 3yr+ (100-130cm) Life span 7-8yr 12+ Recruitment to fishery 0.5-1yr(PS), ~2+yr(LL) 0.5-1yr(PS), 2+yr(LL) Albacore Skipjack Reproductive mode Multiple (but seasonal) Multiple (year round) Fercundity 0.8-2.6 million 2 million+ Growth rate 30cm (1yr) 44-48cm (1yr), 61-68 (2yr) Age to maturity 4-5yrs (80cm) <1yr (44cm) Life span ~15+yr ~4yr Recruitment to fishery ~2yr(troll), 5+(LL) 0.5-1yr(PS) We have looked at differing responses to fishing between species with very different biological characteristics. But responses to fishing due to biology differ even between more closely related species and this is certainly the case for tropical tuna species that are assessed in the WCPO How do these species differ in terms of their biological characteristics? Lets go through them… Ok, so purely looking at this information alone, which species would you expect might be the most impacted by fishing and which species would you expect to be the least?....can anyone guess and explain why? What do the stock assessments currently indicate about the status of these species? **MAYBE TURN THIS INTO A MINI GROUP DISCUSSION EXERCISE

Overfishing OK, then, what is “sustainability”? 11/9/2018 Overfishing OK, then, what is “sustainability”? A sustainable catch can exist at many different levels of stock size. If stock size declines, sustainable catches might still be made, but at a lower level than previously. However, by definition, a sustainable catch is not overfishing (c.f., WCPFC definition). For better or for worse, one of the most common objectives in fisheries management is to achieve Maximum Sustainable Yield (MSY). While there is a particular, technical definition of MSY, one possible working definition is: “The greatest amount of fish you can take out of the water without impairing the ability of the fish left in the water to replace the fish you’ve taken out” Two criticisms of MSY-based management reference points are that (i) MSY and BMSY, the biomass level that supports the MSY catch, can be difficult to estimate precisely and (ii) as BMSY tends to be quite a low proportion of unfished stock size (typically, 30 to 40%) in practise there can be an unacceptably-high risk of “overshooting” BMSY and driving the stock down to a really low level (<< BMSY ). So we have demonstrated how fishing can cause populations to decline, even “crash”. It suggests that the catches being taken out of those populations was not SUSTAINABLE and that OVERFISHING was occuring. Here we are introducing two new and extremely important terms. Lets take a moment to define what they mean and how they are related to one another

Overfishing (i) Recruitment overfishing 11/9/2018 Overfishing (i) Recruitment overfishing A situation in which the rate of fishing is (or has been) such that annual recruitment to the exploitable stock has become significantly reduced. The situation is characterized by a greatly reduced spawning stock, a decreasing proportion of older fish in the catch, and generally very low recruitment year after year. If prolonged, recruitment overfishing can lead to stock collapse, particularly under unfavourable environmental conditions. (Restrepo 1999) So whats this graph showing? It indicates that as the spawning stock is depleted, it eventually reaches a point where the number of recruits starts to drop, and this drop accelerates as the spawning stock gets even lower. [** shows a density dependant recruitment relationship which forces total recruitment to drop at higher stock sizes also] Under the WCPFC definition, when the recruitment starts to drop, the stock is classified as overfished. Overfishing is where the rate of removal will eventually lead to an overfished state or keep it in that state. http://www.oceansatlas.com/

Overfishing (ii) Growth overfishing 11/9/2018 Overfishing (ii) Growth overfishing This occurs when too many small fish are caught, usually because of excessive effort and low gear selectivity (e.g. too small mesh sizes) and the fish are not given the time to grow to the size at which the maximum yield-per-recruit would be obtained from the stock. A reduction of fishing mortality on juveniles, or their outright protection, might lead to an increase in yield from the fishery. Growth overfishing, by itself, does not affect the ability of a fish population to replace itself. (iii) Ecosystem overfishing This occurs when the species composition and dominance in a marine ecosystem is significantly modified by fishing. E.g., reductions of large, long-lived, demersal predators and increases of small, short-lived species at lower trophic levels follow heavy fishing pressure on the larger predator species.

Key messages Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M-C 11/9/2018 Key messages Bt+1=Bt+R+G-M-C Populations vary naturally. The scale of that variation often depends on the time scale considered. The impact of fishing on a populations dynamics and size over time will depend in part on the inherent biological properties of the population and what that confers about resilience. Does the species grow quickly or slowly, mature early or late, become vulnerable to the fishery when young or older, have a short or long lifespan etc. A key task for stock assessment scientists is to be able to estimate the relative impact of fishing on the stock—whether declines are due to fishing or environment will effect the management decisions made. Where catch levels will lead to a drop in recruitment, catches are “unsustainable” and “overfishing” is occuring.** *** More on the concepts of overfishing and overfished fisheries later in the workshop……..