2. 11/2001VHS Auto1 Point type Ignition Flow Chart Auto 2 Trouble Shooting

3. 11/2001VHS Auto2

4. 11/2001VHS Auto3 Fixing something that is broken How can you fix something efficiently if you don’t even know how it is broken? How can you fix something efficiently if you don’t even know how it is broken? To troubleshoot something that doesn’t work correctly you need: To troubleshoot something that doesn’t work correctly you need: –To know how it is suppose to work –The basics of how it works –Critical thinking comparing what isn’t working to how it is suppose to work –A logical process to eliminate the possible causes of the problem –Proper tools

5. 11/2001VHS Auto4 Trouble shooting If you had never seen an apple, never read about an apple, and no one had ever told you anything about an apple, it would very difficult for you to tell me what is wrong with these apples. If you had never seen an apple, never read about an apple, and no one had ever told you anything about an apple, it would very difficult for you to tell me what is wrong with these apples.

6. 11/2001VHS Auto5 Trouble shooting It would even be more difficult for you to tell me how to fix what is wrong with these apples It would even be more difficult for you to tell me how to fix what is wrong with these apples

7. 11/2001VHS Auto6 Trouble shooting for no spark In the same way, if you haven’t learned how we make spark in the ignition system, it will be very difficult for you to figure out why an engine doesn’t have spark In the same way, if you haven’t learned how we make spark in the ignition system, it will be very difficult for you to figure out why an engine doesn’t have spark If you don’t know the basics of electricity, it will be very difficult for you to diagnose what is wrong If you don’t know the basics of electricity, it will be very difficult for you to diagnose what is wrong If you don’t know how to use test equipment, it will be very difficult for you to find your problem If you don’t know how to use test equipment, it will be very difficult for you to find your problem

8. 11/2001VHS Auto7 Logical testing & elimination Hopefully Hopefully you learned by now: –How –How the primary ignition system works to make spark –Basic –Basic rules to series and parallel circuits and can apply the knowledge –How –How to select the proper electrical measuring tools and how to use them So So now we need to learn how to use a process of elimination to diagnose a vehicle that doesn’t have spark

9. 11/2001VHS Auto8 There is usually more that one right way to fix something The flow chart I have made for point type ignition is just the way that is logical and works efficiently for me The flow chart I have made for point type ignition is just the way that is logical and works efficiently for me –By no means is it the only way Since we don’t have a lot of experience yet with diagnosis, lets use my method for logically eliminating all the causes of an ignition system that is not working correctly Since we don’t have a lot of experience yet with diagnosis, lets use my method for logically eliminating all the causes of an ignition system that is not working correctly

10. 11/2001VHS Auto9 Primary Ignition We had better know by now: We had better know by now: –Key on, points on, primary current flows and creates a magnetic field around primary winding of coil –Points open, magnetic field crashes inducing high voltage into secondary winding creating spark

11. 11/2001VHS Auto10 Draw primary ignition on back of flow chart fairly large + - RUN + -

12. 11/2001VHS Auto11 Checking Conventional Ignition Systems Is there spark from coil wire while cranking?

13. 11/2001VHS Auto12 Using remote starter to crank B+ S

14. 11/2001VHS Auto13 Make sure you are checking at the proper end of wire

15. 11/2001VHS Auto14 Primary ignition circuit + - RUN + -

16. 11/2001VHS Auto15 Checking Conventional Ignition Systems Is there spark from coil wire while cranking? With key on, Is There power to “+” Side of coil? NO

17. 11/2001VHS Auto16 Primary ignition circuit + - RUN + -

18. 11/2001VHS Auto17

19. 11/2001VHS Auto18 Making sure test light works

20. 11/2001VHS Auto19 Points closed Points open

21. 11/2001VHS Auto20 Primary ignition circuit + - RUN + - If we didn’t have power to “+” side of coil, what would be the causes?

22. 11/2001VHS Auto21 Checking Conventional Ignition Systems Is there spark from coil wire while cranking? With key on, Is There power to “+” Side of coil? NO Ballast resistor, wiring to “+” side of coil or ign switch is open NO

23. 11/2001VHS Auto22 Primary ignition circuit + - RUN + - If you have power to coil positive Then you know this side of circuit Is doing it’s job and we can move on What should we Check next ?

24. 11/2001VHS Auto23 Checking Conventional Ignition Systems Is there spark from coil wire while cranking? With key on, Is There power to “+” Side of coil? NO Ballast resistor, wiring to “+” side of coil or ign switch is open NO Is there power to the “-” side of coil key on? YES

25. 11/2001VHS Auto24 Primary ignition circuit + - RUN + -

26. 11/2001VHS Auto25 Must have primary wires for coil hooked up

27. 11/2001VHS Auto26 Checking Conventional Ignition Systems Is there spark from coil wire while cranking? With key on, Is There power to “+” Side of coil? NO Ballast resistor, wiring to “+” side of coil or ign switch is open NO Is there power to the “-” side of coil key on? YES Crank engine, does test light blink on “-” side of coil NO

28. 11/2001VHS Auto27 Primary ignition circuit + - RUN + - When we crank the engine What should the points do?

29. 11/2001VHS Auto28 Must have primary wires for coil hooked up CRANK

30. 11/2001VHS Auto29 Checking Conventional Ignition Systems YES Is there spark from coil wire while cranking? With key on, Is There power to “+” Side of coil? NO Ballast resistor, wiring to “+” side of coil or ign switch is open NO Is there power to the “-” side of coil key on? Crank engine, does test light blink on “-” side of coil NO STAYS OFF (NO VOLTAGE)

31. 11/2001VHS Auto30 Primary ignition circuit + - RUN + - So while cranking the engine The light stays off How much voltage should be left on the “-” side of Coil with the points closed and current flowing? How much voltage should be on the “-” side of Coil with the points open?

32. 11/2001VHS Auto31 Write on back of flow chart With voltage to “+” side of coil, there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off) With voltage to “+” side of coil, there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off) 1. Points always closed

33. 11/2001VHS Auto32 Primary ignition circuit + - RUN + - What else would cause The light to stay off?

34. 11/2001VHS Auto33 Write on back of flow chart With voltage to “+” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off) With voltage to “+” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off) 1. Points always closed 2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil

35. 11/2001VHS Auto34 Open Primary winding Don’t forget to isolate one side of the coil

36. 11/2001VHS Auto35 Primary ignition circuit + - RUN + - What else would cause The light to stay off?

37. 11/2001VHS Auto36 Write on back of flow chart With voltage to “+” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off) With voltage to “+” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off) 1. Points always closed 2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil 3. Grounded condenser

38. 11/2001VHS Auto37 Grounded condenser

39. 11/2001VHS Auto38 Checking a good condenser It will charge up and go to infinite resistance.

40. 11/2001VHS Auto39 Write on back of flow chart With voltage to “+” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off) With voltage to “+” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off) 1. Points always closed 2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil 3. Grounded condenser 4. Grounded wire between coil “-” and points

41. 11/2001VHS Auto40 Shorted primary wire to ground

42. 11/2001VHS Auto41 Checking Conventional Ignition Systems YES Is there spark while cranking? With key on, Is There power to “+” Side of coil? NO Ballast resistor, wiring to “+” side of coil or ign switch is open NO Is there power to the “-” side of coil key on? NO Crank engine, does test light blink on “-” side of coil NO Let’s continue on

43. 11/2001VHS Auto42 Crank engine, does test light blink on “-” side of coil NO

44. 11/2001VHS Auto43 Crank engine, does test light blink on “-” side of coil NO Are points always staying closed? LOOK

45. 11/2001VHS Auto44 Crank engine, does test light blink on “-” side of coil NO Are points always staying closed? LOOK Do coil test NO Adjust Dwell YES

46. 11/2001VHS Auto45 Crank engine, does test light blink on “-” side of coil NO Are points always staying closed? LOOK Do coil test NO Adjust Dwell YES Replace BAD GOOD Check for a grounded condenser

47. 11/2001VHS Auto46 Crank engine, does test light blink on “-” side of coil NO Are points always staying closed? LOOK Do coil test NO Adjust Dwell YES Replace BAD GOOD Check for a grounded condenser BAD Replace GOOD Primary wire between “-” side of coil and points is grounded Repair

48. 11/2001VHS Auto47 Crank engine, does test light blink on “-” side of coil NO Are points always staying closed? LOOK Do coil test NO Adjust Dwell YES Replace BAD GOOD Check for a grounded condenser BAD Replace GOOD Primary wire between “-” side of coil and points is grounded Repair That takes care of The staying off side #1 #2 #3 #4

49. 11/2001VHS Auto48 Crank engine, does test light blink on “-” side of coil NO Are points always staying closed? LOOK Do coil test NO Adjust Dwell YES Replace BAD GOOD Check for a grounded condenser BAD Replace GOOD Primary wire between “-” side of coil and points is grounded Repair Let’s go the Other way

50. 11/2001VHS Auto49 Checking Conventional Ignition Systems Is there spark while cranking? With key on, Is There power to “+” Side of coil? NO Ballast resistor, wiring to “+” side of coil or ign switch is open NO Is there power to the “-” side of coil key on? YES

51. 11/2001VHS Auto50 Primary ignition circuit + - RUN + - Is there power to the “-” side of coil key on?

52. 11/2001VHS Auto51 Is there power to the “-” side of coil key on? YES Crank engine: does Test light blink on “-” side of coil?

53. 11/2001VHS Auto52 Primary ignition circuit + - RUN + - When we crank the engine What should the points do?

54. 11/2001VHS Auto53 Primary ignition circuit + - RUN + - So while cranking the engine The light stays on How much voltage should be left on the “-” side of Coil with the points closed and current flowing? How much voltage should be on the “-” side of Coil with the points open?

55. 11/2001VHS Auto54 Write on back of flow chart There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays on) There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays on) 1. Points always open

56. 11/2001VHS Auto55 Point always open

57. 11/2001VHS Auto56 Primary ignition circuit + - RUN + - What Else would Cause the light To say on ?

58. 11/2001VHS Auto57 Write on back of flow chart There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays on) There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays on) 1. Points always open 2. Open primary wire between “-” coil and points

59. 11/2001VHS Auto58 Open primary wire

60. 11/2001VHS Auto59 Primary ignition circuit + - RUN + - What Else would Cause the light To say on ?

61. 11/2001VHS Auto60 Write on back of flow chart There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays on) There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays on) 1. Points always open 2. Open primary wire between “-” coil and points 3. Points not grounded or contacts bad

62. 11/2001VHS Auto61 Points not grounded

63. 11/2001VHS Auto62 Is there power to the “-” side of coil key on? YES Crank engine: does Test light blink on “-” side of coil? NO Are points always open?

64. 11/2001VHS Auto63 Is there power to the “-” side of coil key on? YES Crank engine: does Test light blink on “-” side of coil? NO Are points always open? NO Points are either not grounded or primary wire is open between “-” side of coil and points Check & repair

65. 11/2001VHS Auto64 Is there power to the “-” side of coil key on? YES Crank engine: does Test light blink on “-” side of coil? YES Adjust dwell to Specs NO Are points always open? NOYES Points are either not grounded or primary wire is open between “-” side of coil and points Check & repair If the light blinks while cranking.. GREAT It has to blink To have spark

66. 11/2001VHS Auto65 Is there power to the “-” side of coil key on? YES Crank engine: does Test light blink on “-” side of coil? YES Adjust dwell to Specs NO Are points always open? NOYES Points are either not grounded or primary wire is open between “-” side of coil and points Check & repair If the light blinks and the dwell is set correctly Is there spark? YES GREAT If vehicle won’t start, restart at top of flow chart

67. 11/2001VHS Auto66 Is there power to the “-” side of coil key on? YES Crank engine: does Test light blink on “-” side of coil? YES Adjust dwell to Specs NO Are points always open? NOYES Points are either not grounded or primary wire is open between “-” side of coil and points Check & repair If still no spark Is there spark? YES GREAT If vehicle won’t start, restart at top of flow chart NO Test coil & coil wire

68. 11/2001VHS Auto67 Checking Coil Wire

69. 11/2001VHS Auto68 Open Secondary Winding

70. 11/2001VHS Auto69 Open coil wire

71. 11/2001VHS Auto70 Is there power to the “-” side of coil key on? YES Crank engine: does Test light blink on “-” side of coil? YES Adjust dwell to Specs NO Are points always open? NOYES Points are either not grounded or primary wire is open between “-” side of coil and points Check & repair Is there spark? YES GREAT If vehicle won’t start, restart at top of flow chart NO Test coil & coil wire BAD Replace GOOD Condenser is either open or not grounded Repair

72. 11/2001VHS Auto71 Checking a good condenser It will charge up and go to infinite resistance.

73. 11/2001VHS Auto72 Open condenser It won’t charge up. Always at infinite resistance.

74. 11/2001VHS Auto73 Condenser not hooked to ground

75. 11/2001VHS Auto74 Weak Spark Point type ignition should produce at least 20,000 volts (20 KV) which should jump up to at least ¼” and be blue in color Point type ignition should produce at least 20,000 volts (20 KV) which should jump up to at least ¼” and be blue in color Let’s write this up at the to right of flow chart Let’s write this up at the to right of flow chart Weak spark can be caused by: Weak spark can be caused by: –Dwell out of specs –Bad coil (shorted windings, secondary open) –Bad condenser –Pitted points that arc NEW PITTED

76. 11/2001VHS Auto75 We should be able to succeed Next time we are in the shop, you will have 50 minutes to diagnosis and repair a vehicle that the customer complains of a “NO START” Next time we are in the shop, you will have 50 minutes to diagnosis and repair a vehicle that the customer complains of a “NO START” It will have at least one problem in the primary ignition system that causes no spark It will have at least one problem in the primary ignition system that causes no spark You will also be responsible to make sure the dwell is set correctly before you give it back to the customer You will also be responsible to make sure the dwell is set correctly before you give it back to the customer

77. 11/2001VHS Auto76 Questions?

78. 11/2001VHS Auto77 Checking Conventional Ignition Systems Is there spark from coil wire while cranking? YES

79. 11/2001VHS Auto78 Spark at coil wire

80. 11/2001VHS Auto79 Checking Conventional Ignition Systems Is there spark from coil wire while cranking? Fuel system must be in order Is there spark at one or two plug wires? YES

81. 11/2001VHS Auto80 Spark at plug wire

82. 11/2001VHS Auto81 Checking Conventional Ignition Systems Is there spark from coil wire while cranking? Fuel system must be in order Is there spark at one or two plug wires? NO Repair bad cap or rotor YES

83. 11/2001VHS Auto82 Bad cap and bad rotor

84. 11/2001VHS Auto83 Checking Conventional Ignition Systems Is there spark from coil wire while cranking? Fuel system must be in order Is there spark at one or two plug wires? NO Repair bad cap or rotor YES Make sure firing order is correct Is distributor in time? YES

85. 11/2001VHS Auto84 Firing order and distributor in time Firing Order Firing Order –Have to know which way distributor rotates –Have to know firing order –Have to know where #1 plug it Distributor in time Distributor in time –Remove #1 plug and start up on compression stroke –Turn by hand (less than ½ turn) to TDC –See if rotor is point to #1 on cap

86. 11/2001VHS Auto85 Firing order

87. 11/2001VHS Auto86 Checking Conventional Ignition Systems Is there spark from coil wire while cranking? Fuel system must be in order Is there spark at one or two plug wires? NO Repair bad cap or rotor YES Make sure firing order is correct Is distributor in time? YESNO Correct If still have spark but won’t start, check for mechanical problems (compression) YES

88. 11/2001VHS Auto87 Congratulations Once Once we learn fuel systems, you should be able to efficiently efficiently diagnosis why a car with point type ignition won’t start

89. 11/2001VHS Auto88 Questions?