1. Conclusions some general thoughts  NL strong in submm because of very strong synergy between science and technology  Perfect up to Herschel and ALMA, but future less obvious  Need to keep this synergy if we want to be successful in the future  We have access to prime submm facilities through APEX and ALMA => need very strong science case to ask for significantly more money in this wavelength range  CCAT: Extragalactic targets for ALMA  Synergy science and technology?  Fantastic new technology, but where will it be applied for science?  Any new facility will likely not materialize until 2015, perhaps 2020  Far-infrared wavelength range poorly explored, especially spectroscopically at medium/high resolution  Problem: how unique is science case compared with ALMA and JWST?

2. Mission operations timeline Lack of high spectral resolution ! Lack of short wavelengths! SPICA?SAFIR? Spectral Resolution Spectral resolution vs wavelengths

3. Future facilities ContinuumLine - Note jump in sensitivity of SPICA compared with other facilities in 30-300 micron range - Figure needs to include Mmtron

4. ALMA  Clearly highest scientific priority  Needs to be supported scientifically and technologically to reap full benefit  But….  Need complementary wide-field/multi-object facility, especially for extragalactic work  Heavily oversubscribed  No hands-on training

5. APEX  Constructed and working!  Good platform for 400-900 GHz range  Still much to explore and exploit, at least for next 5 years  Even factor of 2 will help, if it could be realized on short term  Good platform to train students  But…. APEX limited lifetime (up to 2013?)

6. CCAT  Interesting option, mostly from extragalactic experience  Expertise available for heterodyne arrays  Scientific interest mostly in continuum/low resolution for extragalactic  Can money be found? How much? Need realistic estimate? Who would lead from NL side?

7. SOFIA  Not much scientific interest, niche science, poor sensitivity  Platform for high frequency technology  Not worth raising Dutch money for, but perhaps involvement in detectors (if paid elsewhere?)

8. SPICA  Tremendous raw sensitivity!!  Spectral resolution limited, even factor 2 would help (R=1500 => 3000)  Most likely space mission to go?  Need strong science team involvement to drive instrument design  FTS vs grating

9. Mmtron  Potentially powerful, but still poorly defined in terms of wavelength coverage and instrument suite  Comparison with SPICA has to be done quantitatively  How realistic that it will end up as currently being planned? Too ambitious?

10. FIRI  Long term  Need to keep pushing development of technology

11. Actions  Wolfgang: NOVA 3 instrumentation part: check whether NWO-M proposal is needed for CHAMP+ upgrade  CCAT/APEX WG: science trade-off: is it strong enough for structural involvement in CCAT? If so, NWO-G next september? Need decision in March 2009  SPICA/Mmtron WG: science trade-offs and definition Mmtron science capabilities. Needed by January 2009